This page documents a post hypnotically scripted conversational "denial session". To understand the raw psychology underlying this made possible by TREMENDOUS potential for mind control by the initial creation of MEMORY CONTROL. It is assumed that if you are at this place in the assimilation of the "Missing Knowledge" you have seen EMOTIONS and MEMORY, 1961 by David Rapaport, p.H.D. and he noted that "Post hypnotically scripted individuals will normally "vehemently deny" being hypnotized ever.
Two basic methods are common to ancient secret societies. The society I am interacting with here has been given general, conditional post hypnotic instructions to "not be able to KNOW what is being done to them." or approximately generally, "If anyone tries to tell you what has been done to you, you will know they are bad and try to make them look crazy. You won't like them and we send others to you who will help you to make them go away."
The unconscious mind does not need a long list of instructions. In a somnambulistic state it is likely that human beings are many times more telepathic than they are in a conscious state, so a set of conditional instructions will reley on the subjects innovation to actually excert a leading or controlling angle on the dynamic exchange of words and the many signals that are inferable A series of slightly more complex instructions than the simple preceding paragraphs might mention aspects that the hypnotist know are a part of my program to expose the secret that keeps itself. That series perhaps contained references to the actual tactics used in these attempts to confuse my fundamental messsage.
The Denver Post Online -
Your Voice
[ / ] News
[ / ] Columbine High School Shootings
[ / ] THIS IS WHY
SCHOOL VIOLENCE HAS ESCALATED!
[ / ] THIS IS WHY SCHOOL VIOLENCE HAS ESCALATED!
Christopher A. Brown - 11:21pm May 9, 1999 MDT
THIS IS WHY school violence has escalated into what it is
visit the website at the end of this message to begin to
understand missing knowledge that is being use to hurt us!
The County of Santa Barbara California is missing over
1000 insanity actions that were made by the courts in 1876
to document a mass insanity in Santa Barbara. It was
created in by Native American Medicine people with an
ancient, deeply compelling form of hypnosis induced on
children under 7 years that can control them to extremes
throughout their lives for the purpose of demonstrating
the potentials for abuse so Americans could be informed
and protect themselves in the future. Now.
Santa Barbara and its courts has failed to recognize,
follow and uphold State laws and more concerning this
documentation of this ancient form of hypnosis. Since
January of 1997 I have been trying to inform this county
and or anyone that a mass insanity would occur if the
truth is not found by my civil actions in court. I
informed them people and children would die. No action.
THEN Paduca Kentucky Jonesboro Arkansas Pearl Miss.
Sprinfield Oregon Littleton Colorado.
No law inforcement agency will deal with this. No action
from Santa Barbara County only abuses of power to conceal
their neglect. NOW only people with an open mind who care
about children can do anything to protect children.
TIME TO ASSEMBLE.
Visit this website to see tangible evidence supporting
these claims. See the links from "Todays Legal Trail"
E-mail me if you have an open mind and want to help stop
the insanity!
http://home.earthlink.net/~argus1/
Sincerely Christopher A. Brown argus1@earthlink.net
Christopher A. Brown - 10:08am May 15, 1999 MDT (#1 of 210)
It is clear that the fear levels concerning the truth of
what is happening in our subconscious minds is huge. However
if we;
THINK ABOUT LOVE THEN LIVE
it will help to open minds that would like to stop the
insanity!
Cease to abet negligence by government that is causing
lawlessness and loss of life! Examine the possiblities.
http://home.earthlink.net/~argus1/
The truth is the strangest thing of all and we need to know
it to evolve.
Christopher A. Brown argus1@earthlink.net
-------------------------
Luba Vilinsky - 08:06pm May 15, 1999 MDT (#2 of 210)
Chris - I agree our government has a hand in it. But your
communication strongly suggests an attempt to start a witch
hunt. I can see you are distraught, but it just makes you
look like a crazy guy when you rant and rave like this.
Come back down to earth, please? If you want to DO
something about it, give us a way we can protect our kids,
willya?
-------------------------
Christopher A. Brown - 11:44pm Jun 17, 1999 MDT (#3 of 210)
Luba, The way to protect kids is to see that government
allows us to understand the potentials for subconscious
programming. Any perception you have of what I am saying,
its validity, comes from or is limited by our societies
understanding of subconscious programming. Our societies
leaders, government, is hiding a HUGE amount of court case
files that document the factual aspects of what I say. I
have 40 years of experiences I have to live with that were
created with hypnosis without my conscious knowledge. You
have no idea how much it hurts me to rave and be ignored
when I am handing over everything I can find in the way of
tangible information supporting my claims. The obviously
different kids need to hypnotically screened or the ones
who don't fit in etc. etc. We are not experienced and a
large amount of resource would be needed so government is
needed. Citizens must assemble and DEMAND an understanding.
-------------------------
MostlyUnknown - 12:51am Jun 18, 1999 MDT (#4 of 210)
Christopher, I went to your site and read your stuff
because of your persistence. I have thought for at least 5
minutes as to how I should respond to you.
I have concluded the following: I ain't touchin that one
with a 20 foot pole.
-------------------------
gramps - 08:28am Jun 18, 1999 MDT (#5 of 210)
Chris, get profressional help.
Some questions for you to answer.
If what you say is true, then you are aware of the largest
consiracy in the history of mankind. There would have to be
literally thousands and thousands of people who were part
of this conspiracy, but have decided to be silent, and not
expose the "truth". This is not possible in our society.
Such a thing in our society is impossible. Every secret
that the government tries to hide, every secret weapon,
every program, gets exposed sooner or later. 40 years is
too long.
You are suffering from demons that can be removed form you,
but you must seek professional help to find peace in your
life.
-------------------------
Christopher A. Brown - 12:24am Jul 6, 1999 MDT (#6 of 210)
Gramps, I'll answer your questions. These forms of hypnosis
have become "THE SECRET THAT KEEPS ITSELF. Nobody decided
to keep silent, they cannot know. Why can't they know? Some
were hypnotized and given instructions like this. "You will
never be able to know what we are doing to you." The rest
are more comfortable not thinking about it. This is how it
has happened. The mind is a vast thing. Our past is vast.
Now I'll ask some questions. What were pyramids for gramps?
Gramps why does stonhenge have its major alignment to the
winter solstice sunrise? Whats a Ley line gramps? Doesn't
ley mean law in spanish? What was a truthsayer gramps? What
was the evil eye? Is it true gramps that voodoo has been
used to stop and start a human heart? How did houdini stay
in that box underwater so long? What was a spirit warrior
gramps? Mind control gramps. Yea I know you are the product
of a society that has been sanitized of truths that are
deeply a part of our ancient past. Knowledge of the
subconscious is old gramps. No amount of fear is going to
make your subconscious go away. Rejection won't work
either. Denial is what is causing our problems and the
Native Medicine people and others from the ancient
spiritual world are rubbing our faces in it to make us
control our government. Court case files are missing man!
Children are dying and we don't know why it is happening!
Either you are too afraid of pagans, or too afraid of
government but what your doing with your right to free
speech ain't helping gramps. People are good gramps,
sometimes they learn things that are bad that end up
controling them. Love them gramps, show them the good
things in life that you understand. They'll want to move
towards the way you think. Talk to them about protecting
children gramps and try to explain how the pure love of a
child and the promise of their future is natural to protect
with truth. No matter how difficult the truth. Truth is to
protect love and life and it should be so, don't ya think
gramps? Meanwhile you better look at the subpoena denials;
http://home.earthlink.net/~argus1/subdeny.html
http://home.earthlink.net/~argus1/subpena1.html Compare
what the subpoena denials say to this signed declaration;
http://home.earthlink.net/~argus1/skudec.html For a sample
of a fully irrational judge see the motion to disqualify
the judge from civil case
220298;http://home.earthlink.net/~argus1/disqual.html
http://home.earthlink.net/~argus1/distrans.html
http://home.earthlink.net/~argus1/distrust.html If you care
about children come to Santa Barbara for a dose of lawless
governmnent and you will see that no professional cares, so
they can't help anyone.
-------------------------
ekle - 01:24am Jul 6, 1999 MDT (#7 of 210)
Gramps,
nothing is impossible. You go ahead and believe we KNOW
EVERYTHING about what goes on today.
Unfortuately we are (most of us) only sheep, that as long
as long as we are somewhat safe and satisfied in our life,
we dont cause trouble.
Thats the American way.
-------------------------
(203 following messages)
-------------------------
-------------------------
ekle - 01:24am Jul 6, 1999 MDT (#7 of 210)
Gramps,
nothing is impossible. You go ahead and believe we KNOW
EVERYTHING about what goes on today.
Unfortuately we are (most of us) only sheep, that as long
as long as we are somewhat safe and satisfied in our life,
we dont cause trouble.
Thats the American way.
-------------------------
gramps - 09:40am Jul 6, 1999 MDT (#8 of 210)
I would be first to say that there is much that we don't
understand.
Science isn't able to answer all of the questions, yet,
science is at the forefront of what we do know about the
would around us.
There is much of what Chris has outlined (the pyramids,
etc) that can't be understood over time. I am not one to
start thinking that yesterday's world is ALL THAT much
different that today's, just that the people who lived long
ago had a problem in writing down information is such a way
that we could pick it up today and know what they were
thing. Imagine someone two thousand years from now reading
all these posts, and trying to determine what sort of
society we live in, from this!
I am a person who trusts themselves a great deal. I don't
look to other people fro all the answers; yet I listen to
everybody... for a while, anyway.
Todays world has a large number of confused people who
worship all sorts of different things. Everything from God,
to satan, to extra-terrestrials. Formal religion takes all
sorts of forms, most of these have several things in
common.
A person's spirit lives "forever".
There is a sort of intelligence that is greater, and wiser,
and more powerful that "us".
Belief will allow a person to live a life that has better
quality.
Personally, I'm not a "joiner", so I reject all of this.
-------------------------
Ivan Wine - 02:35pm Jul 6, 1999 MDT (#9 of 210)
RE:What was a truthsayer gramps?
do you mean soothsayer?
-------------------------
MostlyUnknown - 08:46pm Jul 9, 1999 MDT (#10 of 210)
Violence has been escalating in America for quite some time
now. You can really tell the difference between different
societies and why one would perpetuate hate and violence
more than another. I can't really explain it, although I
wish I could.
Did you know that France is partly communist?
I will try to explain it with a story:
I got on the plane to go to France. I got off the plane. I
got off the 9.5 hour flight really wanting a cigarette.
While I was waiting in the passport control line I sparked
one up. I smoked my cigarette until I got really close to
the passport checking booth. I put my cigarette out on the
trashcan that said "no smoking." I am experienced enough in
travel to know I can get away with this in France.
I gave them the card I filled out. They didn't even look at
it. They scanned my passport and gave it back, throwing the
form into a box that will never get looked at again. I
proceeded to the baggage claim area. I am experienced
enough in travel to know to only travel with one carry-on
bag. I skipped that step. I walked through the area called
"French Customs" where my existence was feverishly ignored.
One time I landed in France and customs was on strike so I
got to skip that step. This time they weren't, but they
looked really bored. I have seen drug sniffing dogs in
their customs. I guess that's how they catch people.
I proceeded to bum around England and France.
I got back to the USA somehow. I got to customs. They had a
loud speaker to let us know that our first amendment right
was temporarily void, as usual. I got briefly questioned
about where I had been, etc. Then my baggage got X-rayed.
They were searching through some other people's stuff in a
different line. I was finally "let go." And this is to get
back into my "own country??" Yes, I'm a citizen here. THAT
should be plenty. Again, the drug war has failed in a
infinite number of ways.
I smuggled twice the allowed number of cigarettes in. I
also got in two, instead of one, bottles of really good
French wine. After all that !@#%!^% they didn't even catch
me. nah nah nah nah boo boo
-------------------------
MostlyUnknown - 08:49pm Jul 9, 1999 MDT (#11 of 210)
There is a book called out called "United States of Hate"
Maybe you lot should read it.
-------------------------
JAM - 01:41am Jul 11, 1999 MDT (#12 of 210)
Are Christopher's beliefs any different from blaiming the
Video Games, Music Lyrics, Marilyn Manson, Goth Fad,
Violence in Movies or any other strange reasons that people
are grasping at to try to understand how sick and violent
young people have become in America?
Although there are few psychologist who will agree with his
notions, there are some who believe that Lee Harvey Oswald
had been brainwashed into being at least a pawn in the
Kennedy assassination. The same was said of Sirhan Sirhan,
his mind had been altered to make him commit the violent
crime.
So who knows, maybe the Native Americans have some strange
powers that are unknown to the rest of us. But, Chris,
don't you think that they would use their powers to remove
the wide-spread poverty from their lives before they would
program young white males to kill people? Just a thought.
-------------------------
(198 following messages)
-------------------------
MostlyUnknown - 06:16am Jul 11, 1999 MDT (#13 of 210)
JAM, don't egg him on. I think he has enough problems. :P
-------------------------
Luba Vilinsky - 06:23pm Jul 11, 1999 MDT (#14 of 210)
Okay, Chris. I've done a very little bit of study over my
life on the subject of hypnotism, I'm no expert on it by a
long shot. It's not a subject I particularly admire,
personally I consider it loathsome because of the
intentions of the people who use it and the resulting
basketcases. You are couching social manipulation in terms
of magic, voodoo and pyramids - sounds largely fanatic and
sensationalistic. Yes some people have an "unbelievability"
problem and immediately cast out anything which sounds
absurd without really inspecting it. Sorry, that's just
human to disregard what you don't understand. But most
people are far from that, in fact I feel new ideas
challenge my ability to be logical about things.
So, if your theory were true, most people would be too
scared shitless of the implications of hypnotism to do
anything. You have stated a problem and largely why it's
unacceptable is because it is not understandable and the
website you provided makes it look even more ludicrous and
"scare-tactic ish" if you may. I like to maintain that we
are aware enough and capable enough as human beings to be
largely un-affected by such things as voodoo and pyramids.
From what I've seen, drugs are the only things tha
can/would make someone really susceptible to "irreversible"
hypnotic suggestions that don't "wear off" after a while.
The answer is simple: don't take drugs and play video games
or watch the news at the same time!
Manipulation of our culture? Perhaps I can see that by
means of media and education - but I still have my own view
on things regardless of what others are doing and saying
and most people think for themselves and can tell when
things don't make sense to them and they revolt against
government imposed idiocies mentally, even if not
physically.
A manipulative government that puts society into apathy by
something like hypnotism, in times of war, will find it's
"patriots" would be so incompetent or mentally screwed up
that they would do one of two things: 1. Fight a war in
lemming fasion, since logic is completely shut off in a
hypnotic trance, and eventually wipe out more than half the
population by dying in war. 2. In revolt to social
manipulation, people would eventually rather go to jail or
than fight for such a government. I think the world is
learning its lesson from Kosovo about supporting a
psychotic government.
So who would there be left to be governed if we are all
acting like lemmings/robots? What's the point? While
governments can act crazy, I don't think our governments
are THAT stupid. Hitler already tried social hypnotism. Our
government has so many different faiths, it's hard to see
them allowing anything similar to that.
What you are saying about government/american indians
sounds like this to me: "Yeah, let's hypnotize everyone to
start killing each other...uh-oh, the promoted mental state
is spreading out of control! Woops, only crazy people left.
Duhyuk!"
I did a net search on hypnotism, there's plenty of info
available about it. Your efforts to educate just look like
efforts to scare and that's why you are shunned.
-------------------------
Daniel Dvorkin - 04:18pm Jul 12, 1999 MDT (#15 of 210)
"Violence has been escalating in America for quite some
time now."
MostlyUnknown, actually, violent crime (along with other
types of crime) has been on a steady decline in the US for
about a decade.
-------------------------
MostlyUnknown - 08:06pm Jul 12, 1999 MDT (#16 of 210)
People keep saying that. Yet I can so easily look around
and see exactly the opposite happening. I tend to believe
what I see more than what a political group publishes.
Where did they get their information? Could there be other
determining factors? Like less people reporting crimes?
I don't know, but I sure can just look around...
-------------------------
ekle - 04:05am Jul 13, 1999 MDT (#17 of 210)
Yep, we only know what we see on the news and read in the
papers.
Very few actually look at the trends themselves, even fewer
have the compentence to understand what they see.
The media reports what the consumers want to hear, if they
dont, they lose points and money. Does everyone think they
are just there to "help us know whats going on"?
And, you know what, if the govt says crime is going down
all over, do you believe it? What if they said the opposite
instead, would it make a difference? See what I mean. What
is in the media, is what everyone tends to believe. Our
opinions (for most of us) are formed for us by the media,
but subconsciously. It is pretty simple to REPORT less
crime, and then there WILL be less crime. And if we say
there is less crime, then it "automatically" is?
Which is also a point concerning this topic. The only
things that we know, we got through the media in some form.
The vast majority of us dont know anyone that was directly
involved, so what do we go by?
When will America wake up and learn to think
-------------------------
Luba Vilinsky - 03:26pm Jul 14, 1999 MDT (#18 of 210)
While it's folly to ignore the press entirely, I definitely
take what they say skeptically, and I look for myself on
subjects I feel are important.
Your best measure is still observation of your own
enviornment, I think. Sensationalism tends to put people
into an anxious state, unnecessarily and "grips their
attention".
Most of the adults I meet are generally friendly. The teens
(11 through 18) around here though, my god. You'd think by
the way they dressed they were all part of the mafia or
into drug dealing. My sisters constantly points out gang
culture indicators in the other kids they see. Like at
7-11, kids hanging around outside, my sister will indicate
the guns underneath their baggy pants and wrapped into
their jackets and tell me "stay away from them, they're
'packin'", as we walk into 7-11 we're greeted by perverted,
devilish smiles. I'd say 99% of the public school teens I
meet have morally corrupt - do whatever I want, "tougher
than you", "don't mess with me or you'll die" attitudes
toward others.
-------------------------
(192 following messages)
-------------------------
-------------------------
Daniel Dvorkin - 04:27pm Jul 14, 1999 MDT (#19 of 210)
I don't see any reason to assume FBI crime statistics are
lies. Not a perfect measure, to be sure -- obviously
reporting rates vary -- but the best measure we've got, and
a hell of a lot better than looking out on the street and
saying, "Hmmm, I see a bunch of kids who look like
gangsters to me, crime must be on the rise again."
Teenagers have _always_ tried to look tougher than they
really are. Many of today's middle-aged adults worshipped
James Dean, and their parents were thoroughly convinced the
world was going to hell as a result ...
-------------------------
Christopher A. Brown - 04:46pm Jul 14, 1999 MDT (#20 of
210)
MostlyUnknown - 08:49pm Jul 9, 1999 MDT (#11 of 17) There
is a book called out called "United States of Hate"
Response: A book about what love means to us and our
families will bring us function. Native Americans
understand love. They have been hurt and cannot just come
forward to show us. Our culture is mentally disabled from
dealing with this knowledge and has been so since the
crusades.
JAM - 01:41am Jul 11, 1999 MDT (#12 of 17) Are
Christopher's beliefs any different from blaiming the Video
Games.......
Response; My beliefs are different from blaming the Video
Games, Music Lyrics, Marilyn Manson, Goth Fad, Violence in
Movies or any other strange reasons that people are
grasping at.
JAM, I do understand how sick and violent young people have
become in America? Our government is not allowing the
information the psychologists need to understand how a
childs mind can be taught to transition to states that are
totally undocumented. We desparately need to develop
hypnotic treatments for unconscius, irational, manipulation
as well as mental illnesses that happen naturallly or
inadvertantly. Native American Medicine people have a vast
amount of knowledge concerning what a CHILDS MIND can be
taught to do with awareness when controlled by the
subconscious. We NEED to make our government follow
LAWS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
JAM mentions an important aspect of the unconscious
corruption undermining our nation when he mentions Lee
Harvey Oswald. I add that even though uncontrolled
compulsions drive people, they can still be good and that
love is still the most important thing to them although
they may not show it or even consciously know it.
Yes JAM, Native Americans have some strange powers that are
unknown to the rest of us.
JAM CONTINUES; But, Chris, don't you think that they would
use their powers to remove the wide-spread poverty from
their lives before they would program young white males to
kill people? Just a thought.
JAM. The Natives are unconscious with their actions. Their
actions are aspects of a program created 120 years ago,
here in Santa Barbara, after hundreds of them were hunted
down and massacred. Very serious atrocities were commited
because the Native Medicine people and NAtive people insist
that there be a conscious enitity that MAKE them
responsible for what they do with their ancient knowledge
of the mind. The courts are that entity and they will not
function, they will not make government follow laws. Not in
1876 and not in 1998. When our culture/society demonstrates
it has an understanding of what is possible the Medicine
people will loose their deep subconscious fears that keep
them acting without rational limits. They want to remove
the widespread poverty very badly but before they can do
that they must see us work to control our government.
MostlyUnknown - 06:16am Jul 11, 1999 MDT (#13 of 17) JAM,
don't egg him on. I think he has enough problems.
Response; MostlyUnknown, its true. I have many problems and
I know exactly what they are. Finding a lawyer in the
United States of America that is willing to use law to
protect life is a large problem. Jerry Spence has gotten a
letter from me he didn't answer. Pre paid Legal services
won't refer lawyers to me any longer. A local attorney
after hearing about the missing 1000 or so court case files
here in SB said after I asked him if there were any lawyers
who would use law to protect life, "Well you see them on TV
every day." We have been spoon fed our confidence in our
government while we have become isolated from the core
beliefs that make us human. Love as the purpose of life.
And we have become isolated from each other. The Native
know that the greatest meaning of free speech is when it is
used to share knowledge that inspires or creates;
understanding, tolerance, acceptance, respect, friendship
and love.
-------------------------
Christopher A. Brown - 04:54pm Jul 14, 1999 MDT (#21 of
210)
Ivan Wine - 02:35pm Jul 6, 1999 MDT (#9 of 20)
RE:What was a truthsayer gramps? do you mean soothsayer?
I HAVE GOT TO ANSWER THIS ONE. The truthsayer was a
hypnotist. All childeren in the old world were hypnotised
before age 6 and given a deep trance basis. Once a person
has a basis they can be forced into a trance. The community
of truthsayers shared, through trance sessions, the various
techniques that were in use. By knowing more techniques it
was possible to have many to try in the induction attempts
that the king or emperor would ask you to do upon strangers
accused of crimes. Tha accused was forced into a trance by
the truthsayer and the king asked questions. No rational
abilities equals no lies.
-------------------------
Ivan Wine - 05:37pm Jul 14, 1999 MDT (#22 of 210)
interesting. I have never heard of a "truethsayer" and will
have to try and do a little research in to the subject....
-------------------------
Daniel Dvorkin - 05:38pm Jul 14, 1999 MDT (#23 of 210)
Ivan, you're not taking this babble seriously, are you?
-------------------------
Christopher A. Brown - 10:28pm Jul 16, 1999 MDT (#24 of
210)
Daniel Dvorkin - 05:38pm Jul 14, 1999 MDT (#23 of 24)
Ivan, you're not taking this babble seriously, are you?
I will respond because I don't come from Babylon. We speak
one language that begins with an understanding that is
ancient. Love IS the purpose of life and the deep
subconscious knows it is so. Love enables the nessesary
sacrafices to allow life to survive.
Ivan won't find anything on the truthsayer (name changed to
soothsayer to confuse history) because that knowledge was
the first to be burned by those who worked to control the
past with the written word.
Problem solving technique 1A says that if, "we don't know
why kids are shooting each other in the schools", we might
be "missing the knowledge" needed to know why.
OPEN MINDS SAVE LIVES.
-------------------------
(186 following messages)
-------------------------
Christopher A. Brown - 10:29pm Jul 16, 1999 MDT (#25 of
210)
Luba Vilinsky - 06:23pm Jul 11, 1999 MDT (#14 of 17) Okay,
Chris. I've done a very little bit of study over my life on
the subject of hypnotism, I'm no expert on it by a long
shot. It's not a subject I particularly admire, personally
I consider it loathsome because of the intentions of the
people who use it and the resulting basketcases. You are
couching social manipulation in terms of magic, voodoo and
pyramids - sounds largely fanatic and
Response; OKAY Luba. What I read is that you understand
that problems are created and they are loathsome and for
that reason what I claim sounds fanatical. If there were a
fire outside your house you would act fanatical. These
violent events constitute that fire for me because I have
40 years of experience in being hypnotically manipulated. I
know what is possible, kids are dying, we don't know why,
I'm making noise. These are rational responsible things to
be doing in the situation I am in.
People are scared shitless of the implications of the
information I bring. It means they are going to have to
understand the deep subconscious and how it relates to the
intents of our constitution and the Declaration of
Independance. To save our world people are going to have to
agree and allow democracy to function. Remember they are
isolated and afraid of each other so this is a tall order.
LUBA SAYS; the website you provided makes it look even more
ludicrous and "scare-tactic ish" if you may. I like to
maintain that we are aware enough and capable enough as
human beings to be largely un-affected by such things as
voodoo and pyramids.
Response; There are reasons for a person not being able to
understand Luba. Unfortunately they may be harder to accept
than the things you think you are largely unaffected by.
LUBA SAYS; From what I've seen, drugs are the only things
tha can/would make someone really susceptible to
"irreversible" hypnotic suggestions that don't "wear off"
after a while. The answer is simple: don't take drugs and
play video games or watch the news at the same time!
Response; I agree but what about the illegal uses of
hypnosis Luba? There are laws against what has been done. I
expect government, law enforcement and the courts to
undertake an understanding with zeal. Or we should start
teaching children something different about what our
society is.
-------------------------
Christopher A. Brown - 10:31pm Jul 16, 1999 MDT (#26 of
210)
LUBA SAYS; Manipulation of our culture? Perhaps I can see
that by means of media and education - but I still have my
own view on things
Response; You are entitled to that Luba and FOR SURE our
medias are manipulating us and not just a little bit.
Misinformation and disinformation are the worst of it.
LUBA SAYS; and they revolt against government
Response; I'm not talking about revolt Luba. We need
government and as messed up as our government is I believe
that most of the people in it are good people. There are
compulsions of fear that drive our lives from our
subconscious minds and the people in government are not
immune.
LUBA SAYS; A manipulative government that puts society into
apathy by something like hypnotism, in times of war, will
find it's "patriots" would be so incompetent or mentally
screwed up that they would do one of two things: 1. Fight a
war in lemming fasion, since logic is completely shut off
in a hypnotic trance, and eventually wipe out more than
half the population by dying in war. 2. In revolt to social
manipulation, people would eventually rather go to jail or
than fight for such a government. I think the world is
learning its lesson from Kosovo about supporting a
psychotic government.
Response; I don't think I could say it better Luba and it
is already happening.
LUBA SAYS; I don't think our governments are THAT stupid.
Response; Not stupid Luba, disabled by compulsions of the
subconscious. They fear us Luba. Love them. Talk to them.
Show them how you expect your laws to work and they are
your laws. They are our laws Luba. People in government are
human, they have children too. They have futures. Help them
to lose their fear of us.
LUBA SAYS; What you are saying about government/american
indians sounds like this to me: "Yeah, let's hypnotize
everyone to start killing each other...uh-oh, the promoted
mental state is spreading out of control! Woops, only crazy
people left. Duhyuk!"
Response; If we don't talk about the possibilities and
begin to agree about what our past includes it could get
out of control. We are talking about it and I appreciate
your input but it is a bit erratic.
LUBA SAYS; I did a net search on hypnotism, there's plenty
of info available about it. Your efforts to educate just
look like efforts to scare and that's why you are shunned.
Response; Luba the internet has less about the human
subconscious now than it did five years ago. We know less
about hypnosis now than we did in 1965. the Medicine people
need respect for carring this ancient knowledge in thier
minds and that doesn't mean you or anyone should fear them.
Understand them if you can because they are trying to help
us to stop our destruction of the natural world. There are
reasons for being shunned Luba and again, unfortunately
they may be harder to accept than the things you think you
are largely unaffected by.
-------------------------
Christopher A. Brown - 10:32pm Jul 16, 1999 MDT (#27 of
210)
Daniel Dvorkin - 04:18pm Jul 12, 1999 MDT (#15 of 17) AND
MostlyUnknown - 08:06pm Jul 12, 1999 MDT (#16 of 17)
"Violence has been escalating in America for quite some
time now."
MostlyUnknown, actually, violent crime (along with other
types of crime) has been on a steady decline in the US for
about a decade.
People keep saying that. Yet I can so easily look around
and see exactly the opposite happening. I tend to believe
what I see more than what a political group publishes.
Where did they get their information? Could there be other
determining factors? Like less people reporting crimes?
Response; Daniel D. and MostlyUnknown have made a very
valid exchange underlining Lubas points on manipulation of
the US population by media.
ekle - 04:05am Jul 13, 1999 MDT (#17 of 17) Yep, we only
know what we see on the news and read in the papers.
Response; ekle knows that the information we are getting is
designed to make us think certain things.
EKLE SAYS; The media reports what the consumers want to
hear, if they dont, they lose points and money.
Response; I think ekle, that there is a subconscious
compulsion to control the information that the public gets.
That fear again.
EKLE SAYS; When will America wake up and learn to think.
Response; Yipee! Let us do it soon.
-------------------------
(183 following messages)
-------------------------
-------------------------
MostlyUnknown - 02:27pm Jul 17, 1999 MDT (#28 of 210)
But Christopher, I know exactly why the school shootings
happened.
Let's take this scenario: A person gets charged with a drug
violation that lands them in prison for 5 years. They serve
maybe two.
That person has been locked up in a cage and given a life
of slavery for two years.
Let's talk about when that person is released. Do you think
they say "Oh gosh, because I was put into slavery for two
years, I feel so badly about growing a little pot" I really
doubt it.
Let's say, instead, this person builds up two years worth
of rage and gives a physical display of power to the
society that he/she felt caused it by unloading clip after
clip from an AK-47 into a full movie theatre.
We see events like that quite a bit, except people refuse
to accept why events like that are taking place. We humans
are very good at rationalizing out why we can do bad things
to other people and still feel good about ourselves.
And we pay for it.
But Indian medicine people and government mind control?
Sounds like a bad trip.
-------------------------
MostlyUnknown - 02:30pm Jul 17, 1999 MDT (#29 of 210)
Now let us say that E & D had built up quite a few years
worth of rage. Now let's add in their age. They were at the
age when the military loves to recruit people. They still
have tons of fights in themselves, which leads to confusion
and sometimes rage. Let's compound this with other kids
treating them like dirt and even physically assaulting
them. They see the administration doing nothing to stop it.
So they lash out by randomly killing people they believe to
be the system, and then taking there own lives because they
know they will be caught.
That is more along the lines of reality than "indian
medicine people" or "blame the parents." Sorry if you guys
don't want to see the truth.
-------------------------
Christopher A. Brown - 02:48pm Jul 18, 1999 MDT (#30 of
210)
Response to posting of MostlyUnknown - 02:30pm Jul 17, 1999
MDT (#29 of 29)
Rage, socially treated like dirt, confusion. These are all
things that can be created with post hypnotic suggestion in
a group. Our dysfunctions are easy to analyse and you are
doing a competant job. When you bring in the
administrations failures to act its is an echo of the
neglect/denial I've encountered here in Santa Barbara that
is, by the way, just as real as any thing that has happened
in the schools.
Your analysis is logical to the end but our reality has
been distorted by so much of this that it now looks normal
that parents are neglectful. Medicine people exploit the
real weakness in our ignorance as parents and citizens to
make it more obvious, in its extreme potential, for us to
see. The question for the people is. "Will you let the
sacrafices be wasted or will see, then lose your fear and
act to make government follow laws?"
If denial is still a mode of response see my posting here;
http://talk.denverpost.com/webx/cgi-bin/WebX?14@@.ee733
-------------------------
Christopher A. Brown - 02:50pm Jul 18, 1999 MDT (#31 of
210)
Response to the posting of MostlyUnknown - 02:27pm Jul 17,
MostlyUnknown does point at significant events. Events
easily set up with hypnosis specifically to reinforce
instruction given to the main subject. Severe cognitive
distortions can be created in this way within that subject
and can allow the compulsions of anger and violence to
become dominant in a persons subconscious then conscious
state. So your points of drugs, disproportionate
punishments, imprisonment and lack of abilty to
rehabilitate efectively are 100% valid. They are real and
they are happening to people every day.
We are missing much knowledge. Your scenario in the theatre
happens but it is forgotten to make repression easier, more
complete. Its subconscious, we know nothing about how to
undo it, we are in trouble.
MOSTLYUNKNOWN SAYS; But Indian medicine people and
government mind control? Sounds like a bad trip.
Heavy trip. I'm making it a good trip if I can. Got to
respect them all and have confidence in the fact that they
are human. They were born. If they didn't have a mother and
a father who showed them what love is, they still know how
beautiful it is. All of us need an opportunity to react
appropriately to this information based in the fact that
our mental abilities are 86% subconscious. Native Medicine
people hope that an understanding of the greater meaning of
free speech (something that could be anywhere, anytime),
known by inference, as the empowerment of; understanding,
tolerance, acceptance, respect, friendship and love,
PROTECTING LIFE.
-------------------------
MostlyUnknown - 09:31pm Jul 18, 1999 MDT (#32 of 210)
So your points of drugs, disproportionate punishments,
imprisonment and lack of abilty to rehabilitate efectively
are 100% valid. They are real and they are happening to
people every day.
It has to do with selfishness, thoughtlessness, and denial,
but not medicine people.
-------------------------
MostlyUnknown - 09:38pm Jul 18, 1999 MDT (#33 of 210)
I hear that indian reservations are separate from the USA.
I also hear that registered indians can carry small amounts
of marijuana, peyote, and "shrooms." We could easily
associate the drugs with the poverty they are in, but it
would be more accurate to associate it with the still
shrinking land that is not suitable for farming. Or better
yet, the fact that the main animal they hunt is now extinct
due to the fact that we killed them all. We slaughtered
most of the indians while we were all busy slaughtering the
bison. (I think that is the animal that used to run on the
open planes)
But government mind control? No. It is individual greed and
selfishness. We are conditioned by the society we live in,
starting at an early age, but society conditions and shapes
itself based on it's own views and culture. That is
completely different than 'group think' or other forms of
mass hypnosis.
You are on a trip in the wrong direction from truth. The
idea that the government has a system to hypnotize us is
silly.
-------------------------
(177 following messages)
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Dark Shadow - 11:09am Jul 19, 1999 MDT (#34 of 210)
Only the shadow knows
Christopher,
I've got questions here, as long as my mind is still clear
(you claim, women are totally hypnotized):
How do these Native Indians go about their compulsion to
hypnotize people? By air? By wind? By TV? By what? Consider
the population count. Or do they sit around and chant?
Do these Native Indians have computers, access to the
Internet? If so, why don't we hear from them, telling us
about their compulsion? I guess, they are too busy with
their compulsion???
You made an earlier statement, as to drugs you may have
taken? If you "may have taken drugs", they went straight to
your reasoning section in the brain, and left voices
behind.
In any case you've stated beautifully, why men cannot
understand women. Well, guys, now you know: We can't help
it, we're totally hypnotized, hence we did'nt get to vote
until this century. Isn't that right, Christopher?
(*too late, I'm falling on the floor in a fit..*).
-------------------------
MostlyUnknown - 11:29am Jul 19, 1999 MDT (#35 of 210)
You mean the reason men think women are dumb and women
think men are dumb is because we were hypnotized by the
government to think that? Hehehehe
-------------------------
Dark Shadow - 01:42pm Jul 19, 1999 MDT (#36 of 210)
Only the shadow knows
"You mean the reason men think women are dumb and women
think men are dumb is because we were hypnotized by the
government to think that? Hehehehe"
No, no, no. It's the American Native Indians, that
hypnotized us. We are supposed to force the Government to
follow its laws. Women can be totally hypnotized by these
Indians, more so than men.That's what Christopher says.
Help, I'm so confused, I'm so hypnotized. And yes, that's
why men and women don't get along. It's different levels of
hypnotism, don't you see.
(*she awakes from her trance, time to act...she falls on
floor*)
-------------------------
Lucy Schlachter - 09:29pm Jul 19, 1999 MDT (#37 of 210)
Ekle & Gramps,
Would you go so far as to say that there are things that
are not humanly understandable?
-------------------------
Kathy Keener - 11:24pm Jul 19, 1999 MDT (#38 of 210)
maid miriam,
Did hypnosis make you so funny too? :)
-------------------------
Christopher A. Brown - 01:12am Jul 20, 1999 MDT (#39 of
210)
MostlyUnknown - 09:31pm Jul 18, 1999 It has to do with
selfishness, thoughtlessness, and denial, but not medicine
people
Response; MOSTLYUNKNOWN speaks as though he has lived my
life. I know much of what is possible with a human mind
that has been placed in a cataleptic trance at age 4 and
our culture is deeply ignorant of this knowledge. The
statements being made here in response to the information I
bring demonstrate this adequately. And he is right about
selfishness, thoughtlessness but the extent that they are
present in our culture is far too much to be explained by
simple "progress". We are missing something.
MOSTLYUNKNOWN talks about Indian Reservations Response;
Native Medicine people have forsaken their conscious
appreciation of the their ability to interact with others
in the subconscious realm. They cannot control properly
what they are doing with their uses of the trance in this
unconscious state. No one can. This is their point. Many of
the problems with drugs and alchohol on the reservations
are caused by the unconscious actions of the MEdicine
people tryin to help their people. DON'T instructions. They
can't stop giving them. You cannot tell a person in a
trance don't smoke, don't drink, don't do drugs. All the
person hears is "do". Imagine how the Medcine people feel
after doing this and then seeing the people they instructed
as children 10 years earlier with serious problems. This is
another reason they have created this demonstration. And
that is what it is. They are good people and deserve
respect for what they have preserved and try to return to
us. Our cultures are in shambles. Families can hardly form.
We are a mess.
The shamanic uses of drugs that are traditional in their
culture are not abuses and need to be understood.
MOSTLYUNKNOWN SAYS; But government mind control? No. It is
individual greed and selfishness. We are conditioned by the
society we live in, starting at an early age, but society
conditions and shapes itself..........
Respnse; Try to get the government mind control thing out
of your head. It is not comprehensive. Our government is
controlled secretly by the oral histories of the crusaders
that utilize an ancient, unknown form of hypnosis that
begins on children. This is why our government doesn't make
sense and ridiculous things like Bill & Monica control the
media for years on end.
MAID MARION SAYS; (you claim, women are totally hypnotized)
Response; Actually I said that when women are influenced at
an early age by this form of hypnosis they can be totally
controlled for life. And I've said this numerous times. The
Natives are not conscious of what they are doing. They are
not conscious because our ancestors (crusaders in
government) hunted them down and killed them for practicing
their religion of hypnosis. To escape divulging each others
identity under torture they relinquished their
consciousness by uses of their hypnosis.
How they do it is one little girl at a time and they don't
get them all. In day cares, babysitters and other places
where they can gain access in a one on one situation. It
can be initially done in less than five minutes and because
our culture is ignorant it does not recognize the situation
in the rare instances when it is observed. So we allow it
to happen.
MAID MARION SAYS; Help, I'm so confused, I'm so hypnotized.
And yes, that's why men and women don't get along.
Response; Actually relationships fail because the genders
don't understand their purposes in the generational chain
of evolution. Native Medicine people teach unconditional
love as the purpose of life in a trance to all of the
children. Traditionally, relationships are/were often set
up between people who have matching psychologies. However
the people meet, the compulsions that can be evoked with
the proper instructions can bring deeply gratifying
relationships that last through life. Love and sexuality
can be enhanced to a degree with th
-------------------------
(171 following messages)
-------------------------
ekle - 06:43am Jul 20, 1999 MDT (#40 of 210)
Lucy, I think I know what you are gettin at, am I right?
Either way, I will answer it, but not now. Got too much to
do. m
-------------------------
Dark Shadow - 06:57am Jul 20, 1999 MDT (#41 of 210)
Only the shadow knows
"Kathy Keener - 11:24pm Jul 19, 1999 MDT (#38 of 40) maid
miriam,
Did hypnosis make you so funny too? :)"
Sure did. At least, I know what's wrong with me. I told my
husband last night, I ain't responsible for my actions. I
is hypnotized. I'm gonna use this excuse, until the day I
die.
-------------------------
Dark Shadow - 07:01am Jul 20, 1999 MDT (#42 of 210)
Only the shadow knows
"Maid Miriam - 11:09am Jul 19, 1999 MDT (#34 of 41)
Christopher,
I've got questions here, as long as my mind is still clear
(you claim, women are totally hypnotized):
How do these Native Indians go about their compulsion to
hypnotize people? By air? By wind? By TV? By what? Consider
the population count. Or do they sit around and chant?
Do these Native Indians have computers, access to the
Internet? If so, why don't we hear from them, telling us
about their compulsion? I guess, they are too busy with
their compulsion???"
You did not answer my questions. Why don't we hear from any
of these Native Indians? What reservations do they live on?
We should contact them and find out, rather than reading
this tripe you throw out there. Well, you gotta excuse me,
I'm hypnotized. Can't help my compulsion to find out how I
was hypnotized and when. How can I find out?
-------------------------
MostlyUnknown - 11:38am Jul 20, 1999 MDT (#43 of 210)
But Christopher, we could all take the view that the sole
reason for our existence is to mate and pass on our DNA.
But that is very depressing.
I would rather live in the hypnotic world where we think
relationships are based on love and caring about one
another.
I used to view love like Santa Claus, a big joke that's
nice to think about, but one day I discovered it actually
exists. It is generated by our own minds into reality.
Again, Indian medicine people (IMP's from now on) have
absolutely nothing to do with it.
-------------------------
Clayton Cramer - 01:14pm Jul 20, 1999 MDT (#44 of 210)
I hear that indian reservations are separate from
the USA. I also hear that registered indians can
carry small amounts of marijuana, peyote, and
"shrooms." We could easily associate the drugs
with the poverty they are in, but it would be
more accurate to associate it with the still
shrinking land that is not suitable for farming.
Or better yet, the fact that the main animal they
hunt is now extinct due to the fact that we
killed them all. We slaughtered most of the
indians while we were all busy slaughtering the
bison. (I think that is the animal that used to
run on the open planes)
Gee, you are as knowledgeable about the Indians as
everything you else that you talk about.
1. Very few Indians in what is now the U.S. were farmers
(and many of the tribes that were, aren't around anymore).
The Cherokees in Georgia became very competent at farming
(right down to owning black slaves), but this was as they
became proper Americans, and left behind much of their
Indian past.
2. Reservations shrinking? No. In fact, some tribes are
beginning to win settlements for land taken from them
illegally in the past.
3. Bison? Sorry, but the hunting of bison was a short-lived
activity of the Plains Indians after they acquired horses
from the Spaniards. That culture has little to do with the
vast majority of the Indian tribes in the U.S.
-------------------------
gramps - 01:56pm Jul 20, 1999 MDT (#45 of 210)
Lucy,
I would say quite assurredly that there is MUCH that people
do not understand. We have to look no futher than to
compare the beliefs of a group of uneducated, or primative,
group of people versus a group that is knowledgable about
modern science, medicine, etc. To claim that "we know it
all" is absurd. But of the things of which we have no
knowledge, how much of that is KNOWABLE, ever?
Maybe I "wasted" 15 years of my life going to college, as I
do not have all the answers. But do I believe that anyone
else DOES have "all the answers"? Nope.
-------------------------
gramps - 01:59pm Jul 20, 1999 MDT (#46 of 210)
Sorry, Clayton, but the plains indians did quite well
hunting bison before the horse. Their technique was simple,
chase them off a cliff. And for the first hundred years or
so, the plains indians hunted the horse for food, before
they learned how to ride.
-------------------------
MostlyUnknown - 02:03pm Jul 20, 1999 MDT (#47 of 210)
but this was as they became proper Americans, and left
behind much of their Indian past.
Proper American? You are the definition of a self-rightoues
idiot American. Did your little history class teach you
about how we wrapped the indians in disease ridden blankets
to save bullets?
The indians weren't farmers, huh? How did they teach us to
grow native crops like corn?
Go back to school if you want to make statements like that.
-------------------------
(163 following messages)
-------------------------
-------------------------
MostlyUnknown - 02:06pm Jul 20, 1999 MDT (#48 of 210)
Sorry, Clayton, but the plains indians did quite well
hunting bison before the horse. Their technique was simple,
chase them off a cliff. And for the first hundred years or
so, the plains indians hunted the horse for food, before
they learned how to ride.
Yes, and they used every last bit of the bison. I was
unaware that they ate horse, but I can see why they found a
better tasting food! The French eat horse. It is tough,
very bloody, and generally bad tasting.
-------------------------
MostlyUnknown - 02:17pm Jul 20, 1999 MDT (#49 of 210)
Clayton, what if the Germans justified the Jewish holocaust
in the same way you are justifying the Indian holocaust?
People who think like you are dangerous. The fact that you
have an arsenal of guns and the constitution memorized
verbatim is scary.
-------------------------
Clayton Cramer - 03:44pm Jul 20, 1999 MDT (#50 of 210)
Sorry, Clayton, but the plains indians did quite
well hunting bison before the horse. Their
technique was simple, chase them off a cliff. And
for the first hundred years or so, the plains
indians hunted the horse for food, before they
learned how to ride.
Try again. I am well aware of the finds of bison chased off
cliffs. But those aren't particularly recent -- many
thousands of years old. Just about all books agree that the
horse completely changed Plains Indian culture, from one
that was largely stationary, chasing small game and
gathering food, to one that followed the bison.
I don't doubt that they hunted horse for food, but my
reading tells me that the Spaniards were having problems
with Indian horsemen within a couple of decades of Spanish
horses getting loose.
-------------------------
Clayton Cramer - 03:48pm Jul 20, 1999 MDT (#51 of 210)
Proper American? You are the definition of a
self-rightoues idiot American. Did your little
history class teach you about how we wrapped the
indians in disease ridden blankets to save
bullets?
I didn't think I needed to put it in quotes to show the
irony of it. I guess I did. By the way, the incident with
the blankets certainly happened, but there seems to be some
dispute about whether the disease spread in that way could
actually have been successfully transferred.
The indians weren't farmers, huh? How did they
teach us to grow native crops like corn?
Go back and read what I wrote. I never said "The Indians"
or "all Indians." There were agricultural tribes in the
Southwest and in the Northeast. There were apparently such
tribes in the Ohio River Valley as well, though the
Moundbuilder civilization goes away before the Europeans
arrive, and we have to make deductions based on the
evidence that these were agricultural societies simply
because of their size. Far more typical were
hunter-gatherer tribes.
Go back to school if you want to make statements
like that.
For what? I already have an MA in History, specialized in
American history. So far, you have demonstrated substantial
ignorance of the subject.
-------------------------
Clayton Cramer - 03:49pm Jul 20, 1999 MDT (#52 of 210)
Clayton, what if the Germans justified the Jewish
holocaust in the same way you are justifying the
Indian holocaust?
Where did I do that?
People who think like you are dangerous. The fact
that you have an arsenal of guns and the
constitution memorized verbatim is scary.
The fact that you can't seem to read is pretty amazing.
-------------------------
Clayton Cramer - 03:56pm Jul 20, 1999 MDT (#53 of 210)
Yes, and they used every last bit of the bison.
Almost all hunter-gatherer societies use the whole animal
-- hunting is a relatively energy intensive way to get
food, and you can't afford to waste what you catch. Many of
the white settlers were also pretty good about not wasting
an animal, as long as they were cut off from the industrial
East. The great wasting of bison, such as killing them for
their tongues and hides, and leaving the rest of the animal
to rot, is part of an era where railroads made
transportation of the "good parts" to the East cheap, and
there were also incentives to destroy the bison herds
provided by the federal government as part of their
campaign to starve out the Plains Indians.
Certainly, some tribes had a mystical relationship with
their prey, nicely captured in the portrayal of killing a
deer at the beginning of the most recent version of _The
Last of the Mohicans_, but the "Indians lived in harmony
with Mother Nature because they loved it so" is a modern
eco-fantasy. Almost any practices, including the worst
pollution industrial activities, wouldn't do much damage
with a million or so people in what is now the lower 48
states. The carrying capacity of an ecosystem has a lot to
do with density.
-------------------------
gramps - 04:06pm Jul 20, 1999 MDT (#54 of 210)
I can't give you the title (maybe later, I've loaned the
book) but there is an excellent book written by a professor
(U of Texas) about the history of the mustangs. In it, he
very carefully debunks the theory of the horse being
introduced by the De Soto expedition, and was really
introduced to the plains by the later expeditions (1600's).
He also states (again from my memory, and I'm subject to
some error) that the horses were probably coexistant wqith
the plains indians for perhaps a hundred years before the
indians truly took the horse as a weapon of war.
There is an excellent account of when the high chief of the
commanche met with the governor of Mexico, early in
1700's(??). The governor of mexico was concerned about the
americans entering into the southwest, and wished to form
an alliance with the commanche to fight off the trespass
into New Mexico, Texas, etc. The governor offered the chief
as many guns and horses as he wished, if he would agree to
chase off the americans. the chief thought about it for a
minute, and said, "No, I will steal all your horses, and
you cannot stop me". Indeed, the commanche stole all 12,000
horses of the mexican army, and the governor had to send to
Spain for more....
-------------------------
gramps - 04:11pm Jul 20, 1999 MDT (#55 of 210)
Wrong, not De Soto, but Ponce De Leon, 1513..... He didn't
have the horses along to start a herd, and all the hoses
were accounted for.
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(155 following messages)
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Clayton Cramer - 04:11pm Jul 20, 1999 MDT (#56 of 210)
I can't give you the title (maybe later, I've
loaned the book) but there is an excellent book
written by a professor (U of Texas) about the
history of the mustangs. In it, he very carefully
debunks the theory of the horse being introduced
by the De Soto expedition, and was really
introduced to the plains by the later expeditions
(1600's). He also states (again from my memory,
and I'm subject to some error) that the horses
were probably coexistant wqith the plains indians
for perhaps a hundred years before the indians
truly took the horse as a weapon of war.
Hmmm. That doesn't match what we learned in History of
Mexico class. One of the books we used made a point of the
fact that within a few years of the first Spanish
settlements in what is now New Mexico, in the late 1500s, I
think, there were Spanish "horse control" laws in place
prohibiting the sale or release of horses, since they were
already recognized as powerful weapons of war for the
Indians. (These wouldn't have been Plains Indians, of
course.)
There is an excellent account of when the high
chief of the commanche met with the governor of
Mexico, early in 1700's(??). The governor of
mexico was concerned about the americans entering
into the southwest, and wished to form an
alliance with the commanche to fight off the
trespass into New Mexico, Texas, etc. The
governor offered the chief as many guns and
horses as he wished, if he would agree to chase
off the americans. the chief thought about it for
a minute, and said, "No, I will steal all your
horses, and you cannot stop me". Indeed, the
commanche stole all 12,000 horses of the mexican
army, and the governor had to send to Spain for
more....
That couldn't have been in the early 1700s. The only
invaders of the Southwest that would have been a concern
would have been French. In the early 1800s, after the
Louisiana Purchase, this was a real concern. Of course by
then, the Plains Indians were superb horsemen with
generations of experience at it.
-------------------------
MostlyUnknown - 04:12pm Jul 20, 1999 MDT (#57 of 210)
I already have an MA in History
That figures, a cop-out degree.
You also appear to be an expert on computers, guns,
practicing law, astronomy, physics, etc. Pretty amazing
stuff for somebody with a degree in history!
My brother in law, who graduated Harvard law school and now
practices at a law firm in NY City told me about people
like you. People that don't know the fundamentals of law,
but can B.S. others into thinking they know a lot.
-------------------------
gramps - 04:13pm Jul 20, 1999 MDT (#58 of 210)
De Soto, in 1541, probably did introduce the horse to the
plains...
-------------------------
MostlyUnknown - 04:16pm Jul 20, 1999 MDT (#59 of 210)
Go back and read what I wrote. I never said "The Indians"
or "all Indians." There were agricultural tribes in the
Southwest and in the Northeast.
Yes you did.
Gee, you are as knowledgeable about the Indians as
everything you else that you talk about.
1. Very few Indians in what is now the U.S. were farmers
(and many of the tribes that were, aren't around anymore).
The Cherokees in Georgia became very competent at farming
(right down to owning black slaves), but this was as they
became proper Americans, and left behind much of their
Indian past.
2. Reservations shrinking? No. In fact, some tribes are
beginning to win settlements for land taken from them
illegally in the past.
3. Bison? Sorry, but the hunting of bison was a short-lived
activity of the Plains Indians after they acquired horses
from the Spaniards. That culture has little to do with the
vast majority of the Indian tribes in the U.S.
-------------------------
Clayton Cramer - 04:19pm Jul 20, 1999 MDT (#60 of 210)
>I already have an MA in History
That figures, a cop-out degree.
You also appear to be an expert on computers,
guns, practicing law, >astronomy, physics, etc.
Pretty amazing stuff for somebody with a >degree
in history!
My major was history; my minor was computer science. I've
worked as a software engineer for more than 20 years. I've
been a gun dealer. I've built telescopes starting from two
glass blanks and a mound of abrasives. I worked at Jet
Propulsion Labs on the Voyager mission's telemetry
processing software when I was 18. I've been author or
co-author on three law review articles. I have five books
published, one of which has been cited as an authority in a
federal court decision [USA v. Emerson (N.D.Texas 1999)].
I've roofed houses, put up wallboard, and a dozen other
things that don't fit my profession or my education. I
guess I am a little unusual.
My brother in law, who graduated Harvard law
school and now >practices at a law firm in NY
City told me about people like you. >People that
don't know the fundamentals of law, but can B.S.
others >into thinking they know a lot.
Have him visit my web page http://www.ggnra.org/cramer.
Perhaps he can point out some holes in my facade. :-)
-------------------------
gramps - 04:20pm Jul 20, 1999 MDT (#61 of 210)
"That couldn't have been in the early 1700s. The only
invaders of the Southwest that would have been a concern
would have been French. In the early 1800s, after the
Louisiana Purchase, this was a real concern. Of course by
then, the Plains Indians were superb horsemen with
generations of experience at it."
I don't know when Jedadiah(sp) Smith was doing his thing,
but there were many behind him. Perhaps you are right, my
grasp of the dates are admittedly weak.
-------------------------
Clayton Cramer - 04:20pm Jul 20, 1999 MDT (#62 of 210)
Go back and read what I wrote. I never said "The
Indians" or "all Indians." There were
agricultural tribes in the Southwest and in the
Northeast.
Yes you did.
Gee, you are as knowledgeable about the Indians
as everything you else that you talk about.
>1. Very few Indians in what is now the U.S. were
farmers (and many of the tribes that were, aren't
around anymore). The Cherokees in Georgia became
very competent at farming (right down to owning
black slaves), but this was as they became proper
Americans, and left behind much of their Indian
past.
And once again you demonstrate that you can't read. You
quote me as saying "Very few Indians" and then assert that
I said "All Indians." Amazing.
-------------------------
(148 following messages)
-------------------------
-------------------------
MostlyUnknown - 04:21pm Jul 20, 1999 MDT (#63 of 210)
Let's really take a minute to pick this apart, turbo
history fighter.
1. Very few Indians in what is now the U.S. were farmers
(and many of the tribes that were, aren't around anymore).
The Cherokees in Georgia became very competent at farming
(right down to owning black slaves), but this was as they
became proper Americans, and left behind much of their
Indian past.
Is this not implying that they did not farm until they were
taught to be proper Americans?
2. Reservations shrinking? No. In fact, some tribes are
beginning to win settlements for land taken from them
illegally in the past.
Illegally taken? Like North America? Illegally compared to
what? I am on the understanding they didn't suscribe to
British, or later American, laws. Such as deeds to land.
-------------------------
gramps - 04:24pm Jul 20, 1999 MDT (#64 of 210)
MU, there were many treaties that were made and ignored by
the Americans. yes, the indians were predominately
wanderers, who traveled across a very fertile and rich
land, not farming it. "gatherers and Hunters"?? nomadic
suits me just fine as a label.
-------------------------
MostlyUnknown - 04:29pm Jul 20, 1999 MDT (#65 of 210)
You sure that degree wasn't a BS degree?
Now you publish papers on law too? It's pretty amazing the
courts would accept such works from somebody that isn't
liscenced to practice law.
I was on the understanding that you have to go to school
for 8 years to do that.
I worked at Jet Propulsion Labs on the Voyager mission's
telemetry processing software when I was 18.
Wow, that's pretty amazing stuff considering Jet Propulsion
Labs let an 18 year old without a degree work on "telemetry
processing software." You sure you weren't answering the
phone in the front office? Or getting coffee and donuts for
the engineers?
-------------------------
Clayton Cramer - 04:40pm Jul 20, 1999 MDT (#66 of 210)
Let's really take a minute to pick this apart,
turbo history fighter.
1. Very few Indians in what is now the U.S. were farmers
(and many of the tribes that were, aren't around anymore).
The Cherokees in Georgia became very competent at farming
(right down to owning black slaves), but this was as they
became proper Americans, and left behind much of their
Indian past.
Is this not implying that they did not farm until
they were taught to be proper Americans?
"Proper Americans" was intended to be a humorous poke at
the fact that the Cherokees absorbed the white culture of
Georgia so effectively that they became substantial
slaveowners as well as farmers.
Most Indian tribes who did not farm until the arrival of
the Europeans.
2. Reservations shrinking? No. In fact, some tribes are
beginning to win settlements for land taken from them
illegally in the past.
Illegally taken? Like North America? Illegally
compared to what? I am on the understanding they
didn't suscribe to British, or later American,
laws. Such as deeds to land.
First of all, many parts of what is now the United States
were actually purchased, such as big chunks of
Pennsylvania, and many of the lands of the Mississippi
River Valley. Some of these sales were sold by chiefs who
lacked authority to act on the tribe's behalf (and both
alcohol and bribery play a part in some of these); others
were sales by one tribe of someone else's land (apparently
the case with the infamous sale of Manhattan Island).
Some were sales where communication and cultural problems
prevented both sides from fully understanding what was
being sold. (If you think this is insulting to the Indians,
consider what happens when land is sold today excluding the
subsurface mineral rights.)
As I read through memoirs, papers, and histories of Indiana
for the 1820-1840 period, one especially poignant case
involved Indian tribes selling their lands to Americans
(both white and black) and moving west, because all the
game had left, and it was no longer practical to continue
to live in their traditional ways. De Tocqueville mentions
that in many areas of Michigan, the arrival of American
settlers drove out the game on which the Indians survived,
forcing the movement of Indians west. While not
intentional, the Americans definitely benefited from this
loss of game.
The cases to which I was referring, however, were the sales
of Indian lands that were not approved by the federal
government. The courts are still grinding away on one 1790s
sale that involves about 1/6 of Maine -- which is worth a
pile of money today.
-------------------------
Clayton Cramer - 04:44pm Jul 20, 1999 MDT (#67 of 210)
You sure that degree wasn't a BS degree?
Now you publish papers on law too? It's pretty
amazing the courts would accept such works from
somebody that isn't liscenced to practice law.
If it doubt, visit my web page. Some of my listed law
review articles there are actually linked to the web site
of the law review.
I was on the understanding that you have to go to
school for 8 years to do that.
Your understanding is, as usual, deficient.
I worked at Jet Propulsion Labs on the Voyager mission's
telemetry processing software when I was 18.
Wow, that's pretty amazing stuff considering Jet
Propulsion Labs let an 18 year old without a
degree work on "telemetry processing software."
You sure you weren't answering the phone in the
front office? Or getting coffee and donuts for
the engineers?
Absolutely sure. I coded in Univac 1530 assembly language
for the near-real-time telemetry processing system. One of
the programs I wrote extracted 24 bits of engineering data
out of every 480 bit general science frame; other programs
performed similar stream processing activities. I was in
over my head a bit, and after a year or so, the contractor
for whom I formally worked fired me, though by that point,
I think I had just about reached an adequate level of
competence. (Sometimes we learn what we need to learn too
late!) I wasn't the only non-degreed person writing
software, just the youngest.
-------------------------
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following messages)
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-------------------------
MostlyUnknown - 04:56pm Jul 20, 1999 MDT (#68 of 210)
Your understanding is, as usual, deficient.
Let me rephrase that. If you want to write papers about law
for courts, you are required to have a liscence to do so.
Quit lying, you wrote a bunch of history books that only
university kids have read.
I know only modern frame (packet) types, but
480 bit general science frame.
makes me think you are still in over your head.
No, I KNOW it. "general science frame"??? NOPE
I have a flux capacitor that powers my holodeck, too.
-------------------------
MostlyUnknown - 05:23pm Jul 20, 1999 MDT (#69 of 210)
Your story sounded so bogus I bothered looking it up.
Unisys doesn't seem to recall a "Univac 1530."
1100 series and 2200 series, but no recolection of a 1500
series.
I have, for some time, hypothesized that you post crap that
you make up because you figure people won't argue with it,
and you hope it will reinforce your gun agenda.
-------------------------
gramps - 05:30pm Jul 20, 1999 MDT (#70 of 210)
Whoa, MU. I have been doin' this stuff awhile, myself. Does
a 480 bit "science word" make sense? Sure does. Even if it
didn't come from a horizontal architecure hardware
interface, lots of the early systems had to have some sort
of "record format", which was bit, not byte.
Univac existed at the pleasure of the US government. IBM
decided early on that they would not allow more than 10% of
thier business to go to the government, since the feds have
a habit of "dictating" the rules, and IBM wanted a free
hand. So, Univac stepped right up for all that money.
Fortunately, IBM was right again, and Univac is barely a
memory.
-------------------------
MostlyUnknown - 05:33pm Jul 20, 1999 MDT (#71 of 210)
general science frames? Nah.
-------------------------
gramps - 05:36pm Jul 20, 1999 MDT (#72 of 210)
hey, this is the US GOVERNMENT. Yes, "general sciece
frames", from the people who insisted that there weren't
any programming languages that were "adequate", so they
INVENTED ADA!! ADA, of course, is the language that is
written by 200,000 people, and understood by 200 people.
-------------------------
MostlyUnknown - 05:37pm Jul 20, 1999 MDT (#73 of 210)
An 18 year old working on a government defense project as a
computer scientist in the 60's or 70's? Nah.
I have been reading his posts, and about half of them sound
fabricated.
-------------------------
MostlyUnknown - 05:41pm Jul 20, 1999 MDT (#74 of 210)
Okay, in all fairness I will look up ADA.
I doubt there will be any findings on "general science
packets" because they don't exist.
I have a flux capacitor that matches Clayton's 480 bit
general science frames.
-------------------------
Clayton Cramer - 05:56pm Jul 20, 1999 MDT (#75 of 210)
>Your understanding is, as usual, deficient.
Let me rephrase that. If you want to write papers
about law for courts, you are required to have a
liscence to do so.
Quit lying, you wrote a bunch of history books
that only university kids have read.
Try http://www.nrawinningteam.com/cummings.html/ for a copy
of the decision, which is under appeal to the 5th Circuit
Court of Appeals. The Northern District of Texas web site
doesn't seem to be responding at the moment.
I know only modern frame (packet) types, but
480 bit general science frame.
makes me think you are still in over your head.
No, I KNOW it. "general science frame"??? NOPE
I have a flux capacitor that powers my holodeck,
too.
There's nothing worse than a fool who thinks he knows
something. The Voyager project had several different
telemetry schemes. The ones that I remember well were the
General Science stream and the Imaging stream. I still have
a copy of the document describing the system that I worked
on.
-------------------------
Clayton Cramer - 06:00pm Jul 20, 1999 MDT (#76 of 210)
Your story sounded so bogus I bothered looking it
up. Unisys doesn't seem to recall a "Univac
1530."
1100 series and 2200 series, but no recolection
of a 1500 series.
Let me quote from the following JPL design document:
"Mariner Jupiter/Saturn 1977 Mission Test and Telemetry
System Software Planning Document, Volume 1, Design", 1
June 1976, on p. 18:
MJSTPP: Univac 1530 computer, 65K 30-bit words
(Mariner Jupiter/Saturn was renamed Voyager shortly before
launch in 1977.)
The 1530 was the civilian version of one of the AN/UYK
series, I believe.
I have, for some time, hypothesized that you post
crap that you make up because you figure people
won't argue with it, and you hope it will
reinforce your gun agenda.
You just shot yourself in the foot on this one. I worked
there from late August 1975 to June of 1976. I was assigned
to section 918. The section leader was Dick Foster. My
immediate boss was Judy Cohen, who was a direct JPL
employee.
-------------------------
Clayton Cramer - 06:03pm Jul 20, 1999 MDT (#77 of 210)
An 18 year old working on a government defense
project as a computer scientist in the 60's or
70's? Nah.
My formal title was Member of Technical Staff. If there
were computer scientists in existence then, they were
largely confined to the ivory tower. I was atypical, but
not completely so. I had friends who worked at JPL a couple
of years later in similar capacities who weren't college
graduates.
I have been reading his posts, and about half of
them sound fabricated.
That's because you are assuming that your limitations today
are the same as the limitations that applied 25 years ago,
when the world was young, and there were few people
available to program computers in assembly language.
By the way, if I was making this all up, why would I tell
you that they fired me because I was in over my head?
-------------------------
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-------------------------
MostlyUnknown - 08:09pm Jul 20, 1999 MDT (#78 of 210)
There's nothing worse than a fool who thinks he knows
something. The Voyager project had several different
telemetry schemes. The ones that I remember well were the
General Science stream and the Imaging stream. I still have
a copy of the document describing the system that I worked
on.
There is nothing worse than a fool who posts things which
are unverifiable and almost impossible for people to have
knowledge of to desperately try to sound over people's
heads.